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Interdisciplinary Clinics - The Lawyer's View Is Not The Only Perspective

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Two earlier posts discussed the importance of collaboration and teamwork between and among lawyers. But lawyers also need to work with other professionals, although we are not always so good at it. I recall one of my law school professors, Steve Gillers, a leading voice on lawyer's ethics and professional responsibility, noting that lawyers divided the world into lawyers and non-lawyers and then asking whether we should also divide the world into dentists and non-dentists. We all laughed, but I took him to be warning us against insularity and the point stuck with me.

Clinical legal education fights lawyerly insularity in many ways, I hope. Its historic commitment to training us to try to see things from the client's point of view, the much discussed client centered approach, was a big advance in the 1980s and is still a central insight, for which we all owe thanks to our UCLA colleagues David Binder, Paul Bergman and Susan Price.

More recently, the burgeoning movement toward interdisciplinary work has struck another blow against insularity. Interdisciplinary work in clinical education takes multiple forms. At Fordham we have been fortunate to have Professor Lyn Slater, a member of the faculty of our School  of Social Servicesat the law clinic and engaged in team teaching in our interdisciplinary Family Advocacy Clinic. Lyn brings so much to our work in the legal clinic.

One of the key things Lyn has taught me is that when lawyers work with other professionals, we should understand that other professions have distinct modes of analysis which should be celebrated, not subsumed. Too often lawyers try to tell other professionals how they fit into the legal work, rather than thinking about how the other professionals can help the lawyers re-conceptualize the legal work or how the other professionals can offer services and add value in ways that are beyond what lawyers can offer.

As evidence for the success of my colleagues engaged in interdisciplinary work, I offer this insightful comment by Amanda Raboy, a student in the interdisciplinary clinic who is blessed to start out with a broad, inclusive view of the value of working with other professionals, rather than the more common lawyer-centric view of the professional world.

-- Ian Weinstein

Fordham, Law School, Clinical Legal Education, Legal Ethics, Professional Responsibility, Family Advocacy, Paul Bergman, School of Social Services, Interdisciplinary Education

The Alchemy of Building Trust

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I have met many people on one of the worst days of their lives. That is the lot of the criminal defense lawyer, particularly those of us who represent indigent clients. We meet our clients after they have been arrested, interrogated, processed and, sometimes, fed a mystery meat sandwich. We greet them in an interview booth, separated by mesh or thick glass and often as not, the huge gulfs of language, culture and background.

Even with the benefits of more than twenty years experience and graying hair, I still find the first meeting with my clients daunting. I think it is one of the hardest moments a lawyer can face and I know my students find initial interviews, and all their client interactions, very challenging.

In this clip, my colleague and pal, Cheryl Bader, captures the difficulties students face and what we do to help them prepare. As Cheryl notes, our key tools for preparation are simulation, or mock interviewing, and reflection, which is just clinical legal education speak for critique and analysis that is designed to help our students become self aware. The three central questions in these initial interview simulations are deceptively simple:

1) Can the student accurately describe how they are introducing themselves and beginning the interview;

2) Can he or she consciously adjust that introduction; and

3) Can he or she hear and understand what the client is saying?

Most of us take it as a matter of course that we know what we are saying and hear what other say to us. But gaining insight into what we are really communicating and the degree to which we can all do a better job in listening to others is a huge step toward developing into a skillful professional.

Gaining a client's trust is quite simple in the way many profound things are simple - we all listen and speak, but to listen well and have another person hear what we really wanted to say is a very difficult thing. If we can do that, we can gain the trust of our clients.

Reflections on Relationships with Clients

In these three clips Ashok Mathai, Suzanne Volpe and Tamara Conway talk about their experiences with gaining the trust of their clients. Ashok shares the challenges he faced in the criminal defense setting. In his typically perceptive way, he frames the issue from the client's point of view. So often we, the lawyers, are so focused on how nervous, busy or tired we are that we forget to think about the other person in the interaction. Ashok begins from the client's point of view. He also reminds us to be conscious of both difference and similarity between us and our clients and to account for both. In the end, however, the quality of the interaction will be determined by how genuinely we listen and care.

Suzanne offers us a different slice, talking about a relationship with a client that, upon reflection, might have been more professional. Many of us, when we start out, try too hard to be friends with our clients - I had this problem as a young lawyer and as a young teacher. It can be very hard to negotiate those early years in the professional role, when many of us are not comfortable with our authority or the distance it can engender in our relationships.

Tamara Conway tells the punch line to a successful case. Although I have had experiences in which some of the impact of a bad outcome was mitigated by a good relationship and other experiences where a good outcome did not repair a bad relationship, more often I have found that success in the case promotes good feelings. I particularly like Tamara's smile at the end of this clip. I think this memory, of both the event and the feeling, will stay with her for a long time.

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-- Ian Weinstein

Fordham, Law School, Lawyering, Criminal Defense, Student Reflection, Mock Interview

Learning to Trust Our Students and Waiting for Magic Moments

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A long time ago, when I was new to clinical teaching, I thought my job was to teach my students to think like me. After all, I was the best lawyer in the room. I knew the answers and I could see that they did not know the answers, or in many cases, the questions. The trick, I thought, was to get my answers to come out of their mouths.

To all my students from those early days, I can only say I think we had fun and you learned a lot, often despite me, because you are smart and able.

As time has gone by I have learned, at least a bit, to trust my students. By the time they get to me, they have been students for a long time and know a lot about learning new things. As I see it now, my job is to create a setting in which they can grow comfortable enough with the complexities of practicing law to make it their own.

Far from wanting my answers to come out of their mouths, I relish the moments when I see or hear them offer responses to professional problems that are authentically their own, rather than answers they think I will validate. I have come to look for the magic moments when I can see that they have integrated the knowledge they have gained with their own experiences and ideas - moments that I recognize more by their emotional content than by the ideas or analysis I may hear.

In this clip I talk about the moments when my students begin to look and act like lawyers, rather than students trying to be lawyers; when they discover, or come to believe, that they can argue to judges or offer real help to a client when he or she faces a tough decision. Those moments tell me that our time together has really made a difference because I know they have developed something that will last - their own way of being a lawyer.

As They Learn to Trust Themselves

In these three clips, Suzanne Volpe, Jeff Margolies and Romelia Leach each talk about memorable moments they experienced in their clinic work.

Suzanne was a student in my clinic and I so enjoyed working with her. I think her energy, engagement and charm really come through in this clip and you will understand why judges responded so positively to her all semester. She is very smart and sharp, but I think her real gift is evident in the clip and in the story she tells about the first time a judge called her counselor. Suzanne handled the experience well - unlike my clinic experience in which a judge first addressed me as counselor to tell me to quiet down in the spectator section and I ignored him because I thought he had to be talking to someone else. He finally addressed me as a law student and I took my conversation with a client's family into the hallway.

Jeff Margolies talks about an experience he had during an appellate argument. Although it did not go as he expected, he was able to overcome his surprise, make a good argument and do his best for his client.

Romelia Leach shares a story that reminds us that magic moments can occur at any time, not just in a courtroom, if we are as thoughtful and reflective as she is. In this clip she talks about what it meant to her when she recognized the enormous trust her client placed in her. That is one reason I so value doing criminal defense work with my students - having another person's liberty at stake is an awesome thing and really motivates us all to think hard about what we are doing. Of course I know all my colleagues take the role seriously, but it a criminal defense lawyer's conceit that others argue over money or other material things, but we defend liberty.

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 Bad Rehearsal Good Performance

Although I genuinely believe that my students do the hard work for themselves and I am privileged to watch and enjoy, I should also acknowledge that clinical teachers, including myself, have something to add to the process. There is a certain amount of doctrine and other information students need to master as well as skills they need to develop. For example, many think that interviewing is a skill you cannot learn, but compare folks who have learned and practiced it reflectively with those who have not and I think you will find impressive evidence for the proposition that it can be both learned and taught.

A perennial problem for clinical teachers is figuring out when our students are ready for the real thing. In this clip, my colleague Marcella Silverman talks about this problem. Marcella, like many clinicians, came to clinical teaching on the strength of her reputation as a thoughtful, smart, effective lawyer (unlike me - I came to clinical teaching the old fashioned way - I had a connection and my former teacher gave me a job). She learned the craft of teaching on the job.

Here, in her typically insightful way, Marcella captures the tremendous effort that goes into preparing students for an appearance on behalf of a client, the great anxiety that often attends the completion of that preparation and the happy outcome that flows from working hard with talented people. In the title to this entry, I offer my mantra for a poor final simulation, as we call rehearsal. Of course a good final simulation doesn't require any mantra.

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-- Ian Weinstein

Clinical Legal Education, Law School, Fordham

New Math: "Doctrinal" Faculty + Legal Aid = Clinic

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I want to introduce you to our Housing Rights Clinic which runs every other semester.  It is taught by Doug Seidman, a member of our adjunct faculty and a full time attorney for The Legal Aid Society Manhattan Housing Court Project and my colleague Russ Pearce.  The twist to this particular post is that Doug is an adjunct and Russ is a "doctrinal" or "stand-up" teacher, but when you put the two together, they create a wonderful clinical experience.  The labels are real, but the truth, of course, is so much richer. 

Doug Seidman is a bit of a legend.  He is a deeply experienced attorney who returned to Manhattan Housing Court some years ago, having had the opportunity for broader horizons, because he is a client focused lawyer who wants to help people with housing problems.  He is a hero to me because of his longstanding commitment to his clients.  Doug chose to return to Housing Court to run a direct service office in the courthouse. 

Knowing Doug a little, I doubt he thinks of himself as a hero, or recognizes how much his students gain from spending time with him and seeing him model his dedication to his clients and our profession.  He is a wonderful lawyer of great skill and a model of what I hope my students will understand as the heart of professionalism - a willingness to answer the call to service. 

In this clip Doug talks about the wonderful range of experiences his students have in the courthouse.  I note that Doug talks about the work he and the students do on behalf of clients.  His dedication to the work comes through in the clip and I think you can easily see what a wonderful experience he offers his students.

The Other Half of the New Math - The "Non Clinical Clinician" in the Team

I noted above that my colleague, Russ Pearce, co-teaches the Housing Rights Clinic.  Russ' background includes three years as a housing rights lawyer in a legal services practice (Doug Seidman was his supervisor).  He was interested in clinical teaching when he moved into academia, but Russ came to Fordham as a "non-clinical" faculty member. 

Russ taught traditional courses, published extensively on legal ethics, and became a full professor before he began to teach in a clinic.  Although he did not take the usual route into clinical teaching, his commitment to his clients and students, as well as the fact that he is among the most creative thinkers I know, makes him a wonderful clinical teacher. 

I don't think there are too many law professors who choose to use the freedom that tenure and promotion gives us to jump into the swirl of activity that supervising clinic cases involves, but Russ is a model to all of us who are far enough along in our careers to be faced with the choice between using all we have learned to do something new or just continuing to do the same thing because we know how to do it.  I have long been drawn to Eric Erikson's life stages and have often thought about his formulation of the challenge of middle age as the struggle between generativity and stagnation. Russ is a generative guy in little danger of stagnating. 

In the next clip, Jeff Margolies, a student in the Housing Rights Clinic offers his views on the benefits of working at the courthouse, rather than the law school, and comments on the differing styles of his two clinic teachers.  In his typically perceptive way, Jeff comments on the value of being immersed in the bustle of the courthouse and goes on to capture Russ and Doug's differing styles.   

As you might guess, Doug urges the students to jump in and Russ is more oriented toward planning and analysis.  Students can benefit so much from team teaching that combines different styles, so long as the teachers can help them understand and negotiate the differences.  There is always the danger, and I have seen it realized too many times, that the students will not benefit from the difference, but only feel confused and pushed in different directions.  But as we all know, successful collaboration demands real work and attention.  It starts by forming groups, but it only works when we really build a team.

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-- Ian Weinstein

Housing Rights, Law school, Housing Court, Clinical Legal Education

The Tremendous Value of Experiencing Difference

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Here are three very insightful comments from Jeff Margolies, Katie Nielson and Ajay Chheda, who speak about the challenges and rewards of being required to work in teams in their clinics.  I am struck by how each of them recognizes and values both the challenges and rewards of teamwork.  All too often we only talk about the rewards - how our teammates and partners offered new ideas, fresh insights and brought new skills to the table.  All that is usually true and important to recognize. 

Less often, I think, do we recognize the challenges and frustrations that can come from teamwork.  When I work with other people I must consider other viewpoints, accommodate other working styles and reconsider my positions.  I see these things happening to my students all the time and as I recognize the discomfort I can experience, I am better able to empathize with their difficulties. 

I also know, however, that conflict and discomfort are always opportunities for growth.  Don't get me wrong, I don't seek discomfort for myself or my students in pursuit of growth, but I try to accept and recognize the opportunities in the difficult situations I encounter.  My teaching challenge is to guide my students through these experiences in ways that help them remain open and continue learning - and given what good learners my students are, it is not that hard to do.

I like these three comments because they are concrete reminders of the value of mixing diverse perspectives.  It has become so easy to find others who are just like us in whatever dimensions we choose and for each of us to remain cocooned among people who do not challenge us.  I know that my students represent a very narrow slice of America in many dimensions, even as they are quite diverse for an American law school.  But, I also know that teaming them and helping them be self-conscious and reflective about how difference works in teams helps them to swim a little upstream against the current tide that is pushing all of us into smaller and smaller communities of like minded people.  Call me old school, but I still think I can learn from people with whom I don't agree and I even think I can come to like people who I may find challenging at first.

--Ian Weinstein

Teamwork, Law School, Law Clinic, Clinical Legal Education

Preparing for the Future - Teaching Teamwork

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Although I know this thought will induce a bad reaction in many, I think law school is really pretty good at teaching people how to analyze cases and pick apart legal doctrine.

I know folks will react badly because so many of us who have been through the experience question whether law school does anything well.  But once I get past the emotions that still well up when I think about first year (it still has power for me, let alone my dear friend who still recalls getting a spontaneous nosebleed upon being cold called in Contracts Class), it seems to me that Tony Amsterdam, was right when he suggested that in the old days law school taught that one thing, case analysis, over and over again (Prof. Amsterdam's article, Clinical Legal Education -- A 21st Century Perspective," 34 Journal of Legal Education  612 (1984), is always worth rereading if you have not looked in a while).

One of the advances of clinical legal education has been to help broaden the range of analytic modes and skills taught in law school.  Even a person of my advanced years, who still reads news in print on paper and occasionally looks up statutes in bound, hardcover volumes, understands that the future of good lawyering is in adding value through teamwork and collaboration. 

Here is my colleague, friend and former student, Michael Martin, talking about teaching teamwork and preparing law students for the future - which is quite literally really tomorrow, not ten years out.

--Ian Weinstein

Teamwork,  Law School, Law Clinic, Clinical Legal Education

Welcome to LawClinic.TV

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The clinical legal education program at Fordham Law School is a vital part of our commitment to academic excellence, skilled lawyering and attention to ethics and professionalism. We believe in clinical legal education because it is one key to educating skillful, thoughtful lawyers who will carry on the tradition of the practice of law in the service of justice.

In that spirit, we are very aware of how lucky we are to be part of the vibrant national community of clinical legal educators, a group that has been such a source of inspiration, strength and friendship to all of us at Fordham. LawClinic.TV is an effort to showcase the clinical community and provide a place for one piece of our ongoing conversation about legal education, justice, community, equality, the rule of law and so much else.

We hope you will join us in this conversation by offering comments, contributing video and participating in LawClinic.TV. We have begun this project, but in the spirit of clinical education, our success depends on whether we can reflect on our choices and, with your guidance, learn to better serve our community.

Let's start learning.

Ian Weinstein
Professor of Law and Supervising Attorney
Fordham University School of Law

Fordham Law Students Help Guantanamo Detainees

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A lot of us in the clinical legal education community have been thinking about collaboration since the wonderful Clinical Section Conference on that theme.  One very interesting and important current example of collaborative work among law students, public and private sector lawyers and a variety of governmental and non-governmental actors, is the ongoing litigation regarding the men detained at Guantanamo Bay Naval Station. This work is probably the most outstanding current example of the very important role the bar plays in our civil society. 

Lawyers from across the political spectrum have stepped forward to work on behalf of the Guantanamo detainees, including my colleague, Martha Rayner, who founded and runs the International Justice clinic at Fordham. 

Martha and her students represent a handful of clients detained at Guantanamo.  Martha's deep concern for her clients, her readiness to throw herself into those deep and uncharted waters and her passion for the work are so true to character. 

Like the many private sector lawyers who have embraced these cases, Martha has already given a tremendous amount of time and energy to this cause, traveling to Bahrain, with students, to meet with clients' family members and down to Guantanamo, where students are not permitted, to see clients. 

Litigating these cases is like stepping into a legal twilight zone - right now all the litigation is stayed (a legalism for suspended animation) while the courts are considering the legality of Congressional efforts to prevent or strictly limit judicial review of these cases.  The Congressional action was just one of the virtually unprecedented legal twists in this rapidly developing and uncharted area of the law.

Martha was uncertain about how these cases would work in the clinical setting, here she comments on the wonderful opportunities for collaboration.

-- Ian Weinstein

Legal Education, Guantanamo Bay, Fordham Law School

Fordham Law Students Find Collaboration is Key Skill to Success

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We clinical legal educators talk a lot about collaboration, but I sometimes wonder if our students see the value in learning and working collaboratively.  In my experience, two or more people in true collaboration add up to much more than the sum of the parts - if they can really listen to each other and figure out how to use each participant’s strengths and insights. 

I think I have learned to suspend my tendency to jump to conclusions, just a bit, and give myself time to appreciate the insights and ideas of others.  I think I have learned that some ideas are good, even if they are not my own, but I still wonder about my students.  Do they value collaboration and do they believe it is a skill that can be learned?  I am told my students will be going out into a world in which group work will be the norm and recent experience tells me that many of my students appreciate how important it is to develop their collaborative skills.

Here is Dan Gross, a student in Martha Rayner's clinic for International Justice, talking about how valuable the collaborative aspect of the work is to him.

-- Ian Weinstein

Fordham Students Collaborating with Legal Heros for Guantanamo Prisoner Rights

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The private Bar's response to Guantanamo has really been fabulous. More than 450 lawyers have joined forces within the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) to represent detainees and their response really gives me hope for the future of the legal profession. 

I know it makes many people gag when I say it, but I am proud of my profession and my colleagues at the bar.  As I see it, a diverse array of lawyers from all across America, with a wide variety of beliefs and political orientations, have invested a significant amount of time and effort in these cases because they share a fundamental belief in the rule of law.

I think these folks are heroes and as one of my intellectual heroes, Howard Gardner has pointed out in his Good Work Project, professions need heroes if they are to remain with the values that make them something more than groups that share technical proficiency.

Of course working with heroes may pose an educational challenge.

I have sometimes worried that students would be overwhelmed by very experienced lawyers and I worried a little about that for our International Justice students with the lawyers involved with CCR. Not to give in to stereotypes, but I have the idea that big firm lawyers can sometimes be quite aggressive and may not have the inclination to give students room to learn. But I think that has not been a problem here and that the students have really been inspired by the work of the lawyers they have met.   

Here is Martha Rayner, Director of the Fordham Clinic for International Justice, making the very important point that no one knows the answers in these cases and that has worked to her students’ advantage.

The International Justice clinic’s representation of clients detained at Guantanamo has also given Martha and her students the opportunity to meet with Representative Jerrold Nadler, some of their clients' family members and human rights activists both here and abroad.

-- Ian Weinstein

Guantanamo in the news: The Wall Street Journal had a front page article on 6/2/06 that mentions some of the work that CCR lawyers are doing on behalf of the Guantanamo detainees (subscription required).

Fordham Law School, Legal Education, International Justice, Guantanamo Bay